Inspired by a post here:

There's an article on the subject here. Personally I found it a bit insufficient. Is it really the "badness" that makes the asshole attractive? And are the bad boy and the asshole necessarily the same thing? Most of the assholes I've encountered are about as independently-minded as my slippers - certainly less so than me or most of the nice guys I know.

No, I think it's older and deeper than that. In a world where prestige and success aren't usually equated with bar-room (or bedroom) fist-fights, the asshole recalls an earlier strong guy, the defender who's going to ward off threats (rather than the actual modern-day asshole who'll just leave to fend for yourself when he spots something better).

He won't bow down to society if it judges you, because he doesn't care (never mind that he isn't standing by you either, he's too busy f*cking that waffle waitress he saw the other day).

I think the article's right that it's the very impossibility of stringing him along that makes him attractive to a woman. And some of us nice guys could do with learning some of that: I'm getting a whole lot better at it.

For the rest, though, I'm unconvinced. Does he have that much more "wild fun" (more to the point, does his partner)? I can show a girl more fun than most guys my age, and certainly more than the average asshole. He will get more casual sex, that's for sure. But not necessarily with the people I might want it with.

Just my thoughts. Any others?

This is definitely a question for the ladies, but here's my quick two cents.

First, it's about confidence. Ask any number of women and, next to a sense of humor, one of the top things they will say they find attractive in a man is confidence. (I am confident in that fact.) Bad boys and bad-asses ooze confidence through every pore. Women can smell lack of confidence a mile away, and many "nice guys" naturally or inadvertently emit this vibe.

Second, it's the "forbidden fruit." Simply put, whereas nice guys are "easy," bad boys are unreachable. Their confidence and charm allow them to woo many women, and thus make it challenging, if not impossible to be their only woman. The bad boy is like the fruit God told Eve not to eat, only here, he's the guy mother warned you about. It's the defiance and the risk-taking that's a turn on. Nice guys are boring by comparison.

There's so much more that can be said on this subject and I'll have to come back to add to it and see what others say. But before that, let me just raise one other point:

It's very easy to generalize a topic like this, but as with almost all questions in life, something tells me that the answer lies somewhere in the middle. What women want is a guy who falls somewhere between the guy who's push-over nice and the guy who can't stay out of prison long enough to say "I love you." It's definitely a sliding scale, and naturally, women will have individual preferences as to where their ideal guy falls.

So as an ancillary question, I'd like to ask women, on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being the ultimate nice guy, and 10 being the ultimate bad boy, what number their ideal guy is? Something tells me there will be lots of 5s.

yeah, my girl was with the "bad boy".

He was her boss, full of shit, talking himself up, swaggering around like he was god's gift to women, confident, loud, good with the ladies. Acted like, and didn't give a shit about any of them. Erratic, risktaking, narciccistic pig basically.

It makes them much more appealing it seems.

She even said that she was pleased to have got him when others were hanging around trying to nail him.

The nice guy that she worked with that she actually liked, personality, intellect etc. got cut down and humiliated by her "bad boy" and she ended up with the bad boy.

I think younger women go for that much easier than an experienced woman who knows all the bullshit lines, can read when they are lying and aren't as prepared to put up with crap.

Thanks, jiji, you've covered the "bad boy" mystique pretty well.

But is that the same as the card-carrying professional asshole?

I think you and that article are overlooking the complexity of the problem by seeing things a bit one-dimensionally.

To me there isn't just a "nice guy" - "bad boy" linear continuum or dichotomy. I see it more as a two-dimensional plane: let's make it a square because I can think of four extreme types.

So at the bottom left you have the "nice guy" - sexually active or at least aware, wanting to please and take care of his partner, accepting of his obligations and honouring his undertakings. He makes mistakes and tries to learn from them.

At the bottom right I'd put the type that hasn't been mentioned, the weedy nerd, geek or mommy's boy who isn't sexually active or that conscious but has the potential to be one of the other types (I know, I was one once!).

Above the good guy I'd put the rebellious, sexy bad boy. He prides himself on standing out from the crowd, but he may be loving and respectful to his partner. He won't let the rest of us see that, because we might think he's a nice guy and that would be a catastrophe for him.

At the top right I'd put the asshole. He doesn't care about social convention either, but hasn't any values or ethos to put in its place, just his own selfish convenience. He likes to f*ck too, but doesn't care about the person he's doing it with, she better just have his dinner on the table and not gripe about that business with the waffle waitress or her and the kids are history. He's not a real bad boy, he's just a bad mommy's boy.

I don't think any woman really wants the genuine mommy's boy or the asshole, so we're still looking at an ideal close to the left-hand edge. To me the problem is that women who aren't so perceptive or clued up or have low self-esteem misread the asshole as the bad boy they want, much as an unadventurous inexperienced girl might confuse the mommy's boy for the less undersexed good guy.

I'm sure that just makes everything even more confusing. Anyway, that's how I see it until I come up with an even more convoluted image.

I think you're spot-on there, I was working my way to the same conclusion in my rambling piece!

Here's my visualisation made flesh, so to speak. I've reversed my original version left-right to correspond to the notion of advancing development/sophistication.

Asshole--------------------Bad boy
----------------------------------
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
----------------------------------
Nonsexual-----------------Nice guy

So from left to right we have developing socialisation (the genuine bad boy likes us to think he doesn't care what we think, but Boy, he does) and sexual maturity/awareness. From bottom to top we have disdain for convention. The asshole thinks he's independent and unconstrained, but really he's just an unaware selfish, overgrown mommy's boy.

Note that the nerdy "Nonsexual" type who's yet to discover girls can develop in any direction, I'n not equating him with an asshole-in-waiting, he isn't.

Reminds me of one of those absurd figures you see in turgid sociology texts. I always wanted to do one of those. It was fun!

You can tell it's been a slow day here.

To return to the question, yes, nice guys don't get laid because she wants a bad boy, or maybe more precisely a nice bad boy: he'll be nice to her but won't be a doormat for the boss, the bank or any asshole who gives her trouble.

Assholes get laid because unsophisticated or vulnerable women think they're bad boys. They're not, they're just assholes.

So the trick if you're a nice guy is to seem a bad boy without being an asshole, and look for someone who knows the difference.

Nice visual mugwump1. Your two-dimensional theory certainly draws some needed distinctions between the different kinds of guys. I agree that my linear scale is probably a bit of an oversimplification.

Now going back to the original premise of this thread--i.e., that nice guys don't get laid (or at least presumably not as much as bad boys), would it be accurate, for the purposes of this presumption, to imagine a diagonal line going from the bottom left to the top right of your diagram, which represents increasing desirability to women, and by extension, increasing sexual experience?

I think this discussion encompasses several inquiries:
1. Defining the archetypical guys - which I think mugwump1 has done excellently.
2. Determining in what order women prefer each type, e.g., from most to least attractive - we're going to need the ladies' help here. (Not sure how big a sample size we can expect in this forum alone, but the usual suspects come to mind. )
3. Developing theories explaining those preferences. E.g., evolutionary, social, cultural, etc.

I think you're right, we all start at the bottom left, and developing to the top right (emotionally developed but independently-minded & assertive) is the ideal, erring to the right (nice bad boy) if being an all-out wild bad boy isn't really in us.

Yes, I'd expect 1. Bad boy - 2. Nice guy, but then what? It'll be interesting to see!

1. Nice guy
2. Bad boy
3. Asshole
4. Nonsexual

This is coming from a nineteen year old female, so I'm not sure what to think about all this. I think all females have a bit of attraction to the "bad boy" image but it's something that most do once or twice and it loses the thrill. Those relationships/flings are more energy than they're worth.

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it mugwump.

I don't have much time to post right now, but here's my 2 cents.

1. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. They follow the crowd, and now, the "bad boy" is what's "in". It's a trend that has momentum, so now, the guys covered in tattoos on the motorcycle is the guy they want to be seen with. The fact that he could probably have his ass kicked by any disciplined, trained clean-cut guy notwithstanding.

2. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. So there's a "you get what you pay for" attitude, and the guy who can't be fenced in (ie. popular, prone to infidelity, always chasing skirt) is the one her heart and loins hurt for, because she has to "work" to get him. Not to mention if he's fucking so many women, he must be good in bed, right? She wants a piece of the action.

3. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. Nothing's more boring to a dull person than a smart person. "Bad boys" -- their interests, their value system, etc. -- are easy to understand, just like she likes' em. She doesn't want to be bored by obtuse bullshit like a guy who's a little more subtle or "sensitive". Most women like to keep it simple. "Bad boys" are simple. Don't try to impress this kind of woman with your genius at oil painting. She ain't interested.


Unlike dull women, smart women seek qualities in men that are good for them and their partnership (including manly qualities like independence, confidence, and social skills, that dull women associate with "bad boys"). Dull women like assholes, "independent" guys who borrow money from them, need a place to stay and give them chlamydia.

I think most guys should cultivate the manly qualities, be reasonably sure you can hand a "bad boy's" ass to him, and as for the dull girls who like "bad boys", it's their loss. I'm no expert, but I think finding a decent woman is about quality instead of quantity, so the fact that so many women like badboys is immaterial as long as you can have confidence in your own game.

Same applies to avoiding losing the woman by being "too nice". I say go ahead and be nice to her right from the start --what the hell-- and if her attitude changes that's a blessing because the sooner you know she's "one of those", the better. Chances are, she'll feel nice & dumped when your attitude suddenly changes too! And don't let her crawl back to save face (and then dump you in turn)! If she's not impressed with your qualities enough that being a "nice guy" is such a deal-breaker, bank on it: she's not worth much in the long term anyway.

And if she just wants to be fucked, why are you bringing her flowers anyway? If you just HAVE to "pay for it" head over to brazil or thailand and get some ass that way. Save the flowers, heartache, complexities, thought & trepidation, etc. for your pursuit of the real prize -- the "keeper".

Last, but not least, I think us "nice guys" are a little too "deferent" when it comes to women. Don't get me wrong, I practically worship'em. I like women, and don't mind trying to impress her, making her a really important part of my world, etc. But since it takes a whoooole lot of trying to find one decent woman, I've learned to be less "deferent" to a woman's "right" to not be approached by me. As long as I'm polite and presentable, and smell okay at the time, I'm going for it.

No I'm not the smoothest guy in the world, ma'am, so shoot me down if you will, but it takes a high quantity of come ons to get with that one quality woman. And that's more important to me than your "right" not to have me come on to you. So if it ain't gonna get me arrested or fired, here I come!

Sorry for the rant, but it's halfway through summer, I'm in my 40s, don't have a girlfriend and been up since 3 'cause I can't sleep. Plus I'm not rich and have low "t" to boot. Time to start swinging for the fences. Don't let this be your future. Make mistakes if you have to, but swing hard.

And no, this will probably make no sense once I take a nap, but yes I'm posting it anyway.

Confidence? Umm... Over rated. It's actually about being congruent. Everything you do and everything you say must flow from everything you are. You must be aligned on all levels. Usually referred to as "Inner Game".

That's why if you ask a girls advice she says,"Just be yourself and you'll be fine."

Nice guys are usually confused with chumps, and chumps have no identity so they can't be themselves as they have no definition. They usually try to be something they're not... sexy, confident, successful, strong, cool, etc.

Humor goes a long way, as it makes woman relax and feel comfortable around you.

I'm a strange loser, and that's what I approach women as... most of them like it. Even the bad ass ones. Although you have to keep in mind, even the greatest players, don't have a 100% strike record. So most guys shouldn't expect more than 50%. Just because a guy gets shot down, doesn't mean there is something wrong with them.

Also I've noticed "nice" guys always tend to approach the wrong women.

Thanks, Rainbow! Interesting that you prefer the nice guy overall but the asshole to the as yet unsexualized dork - I guess the possible orderings are infinite (well, I know there's only 24, but that's near enough)!

Wow-- don't have time to read all this right now. But I still plan on coming back and adressing this issue. mugwump-- I don't completely agree with that article either- and have mentioned that somewhere else on these forum. Problem is, I don't remember where!

I also agree that theres a difference between the "bad boy" mystique and an asshole.

Hopefully will address this more full tomorrow.

Ok- I'm going to try and jump in here now. But the convo has gotten quite scholarly, and I don't know if I can match up to that! But I can give my take on this subject.

I agree that confidence plays a big part in a womans attraction to bad boys. It can also be the excitement and risk associated with them. But I believe that younger women are more likely to get caught up in that type of persona then older women do. (exception to you Rainbow!) And the luster and novelty can wear off pretty quickly.

One thing- that hasn't been mentioned yet is that I think one of the reasons women of all ages can get sometimes get caught up with a bad boy is because I think they believe they can "help" them. Theres this bad boy, who may show them a bit of sensitivity here and there. So she believes that under that harder-edged man lies the heart of a poet-- and if only he could experience her love, she could "save" him and bring out the more sensitive qualities.

Yes fellas-- women really do feel this way at times.

I think thats the lure of the bad boy rockers that are mentioned in the article. These are men who are desired by many women, and are actually very demeaning to women in a lot of their lyrics- but then the power ballad song comes along. And there we get a peek into what we believe is his soul and heart and who he really is underneath. All he needs is the love of the right woman to bring forth that man from what may be seen as a 'damaged', or hurting or lost male soul. Yes again fellas. Women oftentimes may have a romantic view of the whole situation and man.

She really may believe that he can be saved if only she is persistent enough.

On another tangent-- there can be an appeal to capturing what appears to be uncapturable. Many people- men and women- love the thrill of the chase and find a certain amount of uncertainty exciting. It gets the heart pounding and the blood pumping-- a hunters instinct if you will. I know that men are often perceived as the hunters and women the prey-- but I think just as often-- its the other way around with the men none the wiser.

THere is however a difference between a bad boy and an asshole. Its just that some women don't have the ability or experience to discerne the difference.

Also- a thought to keep in mind-- is that not all men who think they are "nice guys" are as nice as they think they are either.

The trick is to develop a bit of a balance. There is such a thing as being "Too nice". What I mean by that is that some men try almost too hard. Theres a desperation in their actions. Yes, they are being very nice and accomadating- but at the same time- theres a desperate vibe radiating off of them. A woman gets the feeling that he doesn't just want her, he wants any woman that will have him, and then she doesn't feel very special.

Personally, in my past, I've been attracted to all kinds. I guess when it comes down to it-- I like a nice guy, with just a little bit of an edge. Not even sure exactly how to explain that very well either. My husband is truly a nice guy. Hes the first to help a person in need-- and all the old ladies on our block think hes such a nice young man! (They give him cookies.) Yet- when he gets that intense look in his eyes- and determined stride in his walk-- theres an almost dangerous vibe from him. Subtle at times- other times overt.

Its also part of what attracted me to my former manager. He was always nice and so very proper. In his actions and the way he dressed-- very conserative clothes. Yet thats part of what intrigued me-- his very properness, coupled with a smolder in his eyes. I always was curious about whether that proper, buttoned- up man would be a man who would just let it loose sexually. Many times I wondered if he would be adventerous in sex- and to be honest-- if we had both been single- I may have tried to find out. Not saying he would have been interested- but I think I would have tried to see if I could unleash the sexual animal I suspected was there. (of course- for all I know- maybe he really sucks in bed_)


Well-- thats enough for now. Gotta get going- hope I added a bit to the conversation that makes sense!

We see that

To quote Simi from another thread, once again Firefly, you have demonstrated your "great insight to the female psyche."

So, "nice guys with an edge" eh? I can see that being the gold standard.

So it seems nice guys aren't so badly off as the article suggests. Maybe we're just less forward at offering ourselves while the bad boy thinks he's god's gift to women and sweeps her off her feet by sheer bravado before your very eyes just as you're working out how to put her at her ease and explore each other's personality.

I agree Firefly about that "taming" instict (something maternal in that regardless of age, maybe - nice guys are potential good fathers but bad boys are "boys"?). I think there are women who successfully tamed their bad boy and promptly lost interest in him as a result! Now I aim to keep myself just wild enough to be interesting but domesticated enough not to be worth further effort.

I agree too about not being too "nice". There's certainly an appeal to some element of "danger" or risk, maybe it's the desire for someone who'll be ready to get medieval on any other guy who wrongs her.

I guess "nice guy with an edge" goes for me - it seems my views, tastes & lifestyle make me just a bit of a bad boy in most women's eyes without any effort, while friends, women who're into my scene and other guys know I'm anything but. That'll do for me, for now.

I'm glad people like my "nice guy with an edge"!

mugwump- I must admit, I do like knowing that if someone did me wrong or tried to hurt me, that my husband would most likely ahnihilate him. Hes very slow to anger in most cases and has never gotten involved in a physical altercation in all the years we've been together- but I know that potential is there. And hes a big guy.

Okay, so I didn't read all the responses, I might be covering something someone else has touched on.

Basically, a lot of people don't like making the first move, so, the type of personality that will probably make the first move? Extroverted, outgoing types. So, just from probability, those people, both male and female, get the greater odds.

Another point I would like to make is the submissive/dominant dynamic that goes on in all relationships. Some people just respond to dominance - even if the person is spouting crap, if they say it loud enough and with an air of authority, there will be many all too happy to follow. (Think Hitler)

Now about nice guys. I dated a guy who may be described as "nice", but when I better got to know him, it was more like "pushover". He was unmotivated, I had to send out job apps for him. He was overly emotional, to the point where he didn't even know what he was saying, just blubbering on and on...It was just terribly unsexy. I could dominate him, hey, I'm an outgoing person.
One thing that always attracted me to my husband was that he was not afraid of me. I could try to pull some shit with him, and he just wouldn't have it. Sometime I was right and he was wrong, and in the moment it pissed me off. But I would never change that about him, because it is also what makes him completely sexy. He doesn't dominate me in a bad way, but he isn't rolling over at my every whim either. He's really a mix of lots of types, just like I am. He's good with computers and electronics, but he's also very athletic. He's intellectual and sensitive but also laughs at fart jokes and watches porn.

I think for both men and women, it just takes time before you can find someone who has the compatible combination of stereotypes that works for you.

I have to be honest. I have always had a thing for the "bad boy".

I don't know why. But I find them incredibly sexual. Like, if they were in my bed, I don't know if they would fuck me or bite me, either way, I would be happy...

I'd do both. Will I do?

Definately a difference between being a wimpy milk toast pushover and being a nice guy. I've always been the "nice guy" and tried to treat the women in my life with respect and gently. However, if someone ever tried to physically hurt one of them they would come to regret it. My sister in law is married to a goon who thinks his whole responsibility in ife is to go to work and come home. Everything else is left up to her, I can't stand the guy and he just doesn't get it. We've tried talking to him about it but he's an idiot. I'd seriously like to "adjust his outlook" but peace with the in laws would end and I would end up looking like the bad son in law. Hey Simi, I'd bite ya!!!

I have a buddy who bemoans the "bad boy" phenomenon constantly. He's a "nice guy", I guess you'd say. As far as I can tell, it's all about his own lack of confidence, regret at not taking more chances in life, and need to find somebody to blame besides himself.

It's not that he didn't try hard enough, in other words...it's that women just don't want a "nice guy" like him. It smells like baloney to me. And it also sounds really insulting to women...related in some distant way to the "she was asking for it" rape defense. As in: women like to be treated badly. I don't buy it, not as anything like a general rule. The fantasy of a brash, self-centered, hyper-masculine love machine is one thing; the reality of choosing one over a kind, considerate and loving man is another.

Here's my guess: men created the "women like bad boys" myth because it's actually a lot of work to get to know someone and take the time to really court them. It's easier to throw in the towel and blame it on a woman's bad taste or neuroses.

Just a guess. Am I singing off-key here?

I think there's something in that (I'm doubtless guilty too on all points), but it still leaves the question: why do assholes get laid? At all, ever? I'm talking not so much the independent, overtly sexual self-assured "bad boy", but the real arrogant, abusive, stupid asshole. Girls' inexperience seems likely to be a major factor, and you just find yourself thinking "If you're really such a poor judge, stay at home."

I titled the thread after the article, but really I guess "Why do assholes get laid?" would have been more suitable. Nice guys do get laid, of course, they just feel the traumas more.

My guess is that guys who are assholes get laid because there are also women who are assholes. They find each other.

I don't think it's that straightforward: I think lots of women end up with these creeps not having a clue what they're letting themselves in for - and often it's the inexperienced, those rushing too early into seeking a lifelong attachment or those with deeper insecurities. Nice guys can end up with female assholes too, it cuts both ways. Maybe I need to write my shopping-list down and keep it with me at all times.

Honestly? Sometimes it's the thrill of the chase...

Not so much now, my tastes have matured. However, in my younger days... yeah, for sure. It was the thrill of taming that bad boy for one evening. Then, I moved on to other things (i.e. the next bad boy).

Ah, but bad boy or asshole? There's a difference - or is there?

From what I have experienced... not so much. Fortunately, I wasn't looking for a relationship. I was looking for a good time, one time.

also 40, and about to be 41.
I always went for the bad boy who was not bad to me. I'd walk on jerks in a heartbeat. But a long hair wild child look? I'd melt for that. Still do.
I have a partner who is the consummate nice guy. He's got shoulder length black curly hair, shot with silver. Computer geek, into a lot of techie stuff, as in a solar home.
My type of nerd, shall we say?
Won me over by thinking I was a) 30 and b) a member of Mensa.
I laughed, said I'd tested but I'm not a linear thinker. I've got the IQ score.
He's giving in bed, and gentle off the sheets. He dazzles me.

Partner two (newly single..I'll settle down someday) is also longer haired, kind of reserved in a New England sort of way but with a wicked wit. No reserve when we are alone. I'm in awe of this man. (and he's said the same of me.. see, nice guys can get all they want, if they know how)

Neither is an asshole.
So I have two sexy in different ways nice guys with edge.

Women want George Clooney in the sack and Tom Hanks to raise their kids. Just as we want Betty Crocker in the kitchen and a porn star in the bedroom.

The key is to be yourself and exude confidence...that confidence is genetically imprinted to resemble "Thor" bringing back mastodaon kill to cave...yes...women want security AND a stud to propogate the species.

You can be a stud for her reproduction years and a nice guy to give her the security she needs. Juggling your multiple roles is easier than it sounds. Blog shares my journey to be all I can be for my wife which in turn turned her from a frumpy "mom" into a smokin' hot MILF in less than six months.

Thats some good writing makeyourwifehot! I hope the men here go and read it. Some of it is what I've been saying and writing here for months. Maybe it'll be more believable coming from a man!

If you draw a line between asshole and nice guy, I oscillate back and forth sort of near the middle of the line.
So that makes me part nice guy and part asshole.I suppose that makes me an overall S.O.B. Why didn't you include S.O.B. I bet
girls like S.O.B.'s better than bad boys or nice guys.
Now there are other facets of S.O.B. There are real low life S.O.B.'a or your plain old generic or natural born S.O.B.'s
I've been an S.O.B. since I was three years old.Just ask my mother.Now that she is 86 and I have to take care of her,I can tell she is also and S.O.B. by nature.There is a real chance that there is a genetic predisposition that someone being a natural S.O.B. I'd ask my mom if I used to bite real hard on her nipples when she fed me which would prove it was genetic,but she wouldn't remember.I really do believe it is genetic and sometimes very recessive. I've seen real parents who are really decent people have offspring that are true S.O.B.'s.Maybe soon they will have take home urine tests that can give you warning if you are going to have and S.O.B. of a child before hand.

Just curious: Are bad boys/assholes the only ones capable of providing a good time? Or do they provide the best times?

I would relax and be yourself because if your introduction turns into dates and a relationship, the real you will end up being there anyway.
BTW Nice guys do well also.But if the nice guy image turns into
an insecure guy being nice,you will be chewed up very quickly and
spit out just as fast.Women crap all over insecure guys that act
nice.Believe me, I've been there most of my dating life.

Bingo! I think this is very much age-specific. It's also situation-specific. What I mean is ... where are you finding these women that seem to prefer bad boys? Exactly.

It's true that women are attracted to confidence, but that doesn't necessarily equate to bad boys. I've known tons of nice guys who were perfectly confident with themselves. Confidence and bluster are not the same thing.

To me, confidence is being secure enough in yourself that you have no need to pump yourself up. You don't always have to be right. You don't always have to be the center of attention. And you certainly don't have to tear someone else down in order to make yourself look good.

A confident man takes responsibility for himself and his own life. He doesn't blame others for his shortcomings. He freely acknowledges the accomplishments of others.

So-called bad boys are just that ... boys. They're still adolescents, no matter what their age in years. Grown-up men have no need for that kind of silliness.

Grown-up women prefer grown-up men.

I think this argument could also be put in reverse as "Why nice guys like older/mature women".

At 24, I've only fallen in love once, and that was with a lady that's 41 and married. Obviously it's not going to work, for several reasons beyond the married part, but I love being with her because everything is up front and honest, and there's no bullshit. I laugh with her about everything.

We're best friends now, but finding that level of maturity in someone my age is tough.

As a quick aside, is there a way to display your age on your avatar in threads?

Great definition and perspective on confidence.


I completely feel you and can directly relate. Couldn't agree more.


Not that I'm aware of, unless it's possible to put that in under "Location" or squeeze it in with location info so it displays under one's avatar.

So what's everyone's definition of a badyboy then? A psychopath or some cocky little idiot? The former is a badboy and the latter is just a some fool who thinks he's gods gift.

The definition of a nice guy. A person who's nice but isn't a doormat. I'm a nice guy but no doormat. I couldn't put up with being ordered around or told what to do.

I used to be one of those "nice guys" who never got laid. But, in retrospect, I was going about it ALL wrong!

I was confusing being a "nice guy" with being a "total wish-wash". It was no wonder I was floundering with women. I was so afraid of being "bad" when I should have just trusted that I could $%&* a girl without it having to be the end of the world. There were guys who were getting laid left and right, and I thought they were "bad boys" or even worse. But they were just "nice guys" who had more confidence and guts than I did.

I don't think any girl worth a "nice guy's" time really wants an asshole... who guys like me viewed as "bad boys".

Hope I just made sense!

Made more sense than it should've. =]

Though I don't remember whether or not I posted on this thread... (And I'm far too lazy to check..) I think you're dead on with the confidence and guts theory.

Assholes and bad boys are fun in theory but they kinda suck in real life. Nice guys are great, provided they have confidence and a personality and a sense of humor. Pushovers and doormats, however, don't do much for my sex drive.

Remember...Nice guy with an edge!


My most recent article is about nice guys and if they finish last. Check it out if you want.

I also think some self-professed nice guys- aren't always as nice as they think they are. lol.

I was a true nice guy when I was dating. And what did I get? All crapped on. Then I decided that I would find a girl a treat her like doo doo, and it worked. We then got divorced after 5 years because she ended up crapping all over me when she found out I was a real nice guy.When we were dating, if she got disrespectful, I would make her jealous. Then I got her under control. But when we got married, getting her jealous was called adultery, which was no longer an option.
So I went back to being a nice guy and I ended up with a gorgeous
girl with a hot body who was looking for a real nice guy. I qualified so she married me.
Nice guys can take a beating, but some friends of mine I grew up with,who were nice guys too, ended up in good shape too.
But for kreeps sake, be yourself and don't play hard to get or any other games. You can end up with a girl that really likes the guy that you were imitating. Always be yourself, within reason.

I don't think its good to treat a woman like crap either. Theres a difference between being a bit of a rebel-- and being an asshole.

Well this girl I treated like crap didn't really mean I treated her
crappy.Not being nice as in indifferent was crappy. But I did really once crap on her bad. I think that is where she had in her mind that I had the capability to be real bad.
I decided that I would treat her like crap because I knew she was dumping guys after two weeks.So I got to her before she got to me. I invited her to front row seats to a rock concert to a favorite band of hers.The concert was on a Sat night. Long story short, I just didn't show up at her house at all.
My phone was ringing off the hook.But not having tickets, I couldn't answer it. So that was fun.
That was the first time I ever crapped on a girl. She broke up with me because all her friends heard about it.
I then went back to her after a couple weeks and asked if we could just be friends.Then we were.
My friend and I went through our notes and came up with a psychological game called "Take it away" I was to treat her like a queen as a friend for about a month and we marked on the calender the day I would take it away.That meant that the treating like a queen treatment would turn into complete indifference. The day came and when I usually called her everyday, I didn't call her. So she called me. I told her that I was cooking something and I would call her back. I didn't.
Within 48 hrs of that call, I got a note on my parents condo door telling me that she loved me.Then eventually we got married and well the real reason why we broke up is that I couldn't make a living. But she was a bitch from day one when she new she had me securely.
So that's what I got for being crappy to a girl.
I got crapped on all the time because I came with roses and poems and phone calls. And it all ended up the same. I got crapped on.
But all the crapping stopped when I met my present wife.She was looking for a nice guy her whole life.And when she was 26 years old, thinking that she would never get married,she met me. She loved to flowers, the poems, and the calls. As a matter of fact, her last birthday was on 11/11. I wrote her a poem. She likes card so I bought her a card.But when I read what the card said,I insulted the author.She got mad and didn't want the card.That's when I wrote my poem to her.It was so good even I was impressed.
SO after 20 years of marriage, I am still writing poems to her.
But nevertheless, I am still getting crapped on... just kidding.
Monica is your typical america wife from ecuadot. I don't clean the house enough and I need to bath my dog more often type thing.

I was always a nice guy.But I finally figured out what a nice guy is and what an insecure guy was.
A nice guy is a nice guy that brings flowers,writes poems,opens up doors,and always has my ears open to listen.
Now if a girl starts to be a bit nasty or disrespectful, I believe that she gets the opinion that the guy is just insecure and
running after them.This always ended up in my getting dumped on
Even my first wife when we were dating said things like,"I want to see other guys." The only chance of the relationship to survive is that I had to go out and get her jealous.

The only thing wrong with that is when she started treating my like dirt when we got married, I refused to go out and make her jealous because I don't commit adultery.

So she continued to treat me like crap for 5 years.

But when I met my second wife, she was out for a nice guy. She liked the flowers,chocolate, and poems.The nicer I was, the more she loved me.Now it is 20 years later and I bought her flowers just today.When I got her a birthday card, I never look inside to see what was written.The guy or girl whoever she was sucked.So I told my wife that and she got mad and didn't want the card.

So I went in the computer room and wrote her a poem that almost
knocked her socks off. She wanted the card back, but put the poem
underneath the card.

I think all guys should write their own feelings if they give a girl a card because I think it's cheap,and only plain words if they weren't written with from the guy's heart.
SO I wrote this poem,
Dear Monica,
It's now time for another birthday.
Things are just like they were from the start
Except with your face and your body, you look like an old ugly fart.

J/K
It was a nice one and very romantic too. I amaze myself sometimes all the stuff that comes out of me. I look at it and say...Did I really write that stuff. WOw..that ought to be worth
some points. Let me go over to ebay and see if their is anything I would like to get!

Well, I'm what you'd consider a "good boy", I guess..... but I sure as heck have been known to bite, too!

I think men's definition of a bad boy and women's could be different. For example:

I've been called an asshole by some women because they couldn't control me or get what they wanted. Or I've slept with them a few times but decided I didn't want a relationship with them. To me, none of these things made me a "bad boy", but they called me an "asshole" or "arsehole" (in the UK) because of it.

My highly biased opinion of myself is: I think I'm a nice guy who can't be controlled or walked all over. I think this has gained me more respect in the long run and made the women in my life try harder in our relationships.

In my current relationship, I've had to work harder and take a lot of stands on principle. Our relationship is fiery, largely because my gf has a very volatile personality and pushes the boundaries of behaviour that I can tolerate. So I've had to work extra hard to maintain some sense of equity and fairness in our relationship.

This doesn't make a guy an asshole (or an arsehole). I used to think it did, and avoided getting into situations like that which you described. I wish I hadn't... wish I hadn't been fearful of being labeled such a thing for simply being a guy with wants and desires... while not being perfect.

No- that doesn't make a man an asshole. The only way it may-- is if a man gives a woman the impression that hes really into her and may want a steady relationship, but hes really only after some sex for awhile.

This happens to women a lot more then it should. I see no problem in having sex and and seeing someone-- as long as you are both on the same page. Problem is- too often, men do dangle the relationship carrot in front of the woman to get sex. On the other hand-- women can sometimes dangle the sex carrot to get a relationship. Either way- its not a good thing.

As for being your own person and not being controlled-- I'm all for that. Thats pretty important. But you have to make sure you don't go too far and never give in on anything. Not giving in on anything is another form on control as well. That does make a person a bit of an asshole. Compromise should come from both sides.

You are who you are, and you can only control what you can control. Don't worry about what bad boy, asshole, or dotcom millionaire is getting more than you.

Go out there knowing that there is someone who wants you to find her, and then make it your mission to do so.

Keep it real and don't play games. Don't try to be some bad-ass or an arrogant jerk. Look for the positive instead of talking negative. Be funny and don't take the game so seriously. Look into her eyes with honesty but not creepiness. Be fun and a bit devil-may-care but safe instead of psycho.

Show her your spirited side, and then ask her to come along on your adventure and knock her off her feet with the cool, confident you that you are.

And always delight the customer!

Im consider myself a nice guy with an edge to be exact. to be honest if you look at my outside demeanor i have the look of don't $%&* with me. Which can be case if i don't know you or like you. I don't smile often. One girl at work you should smile more often joking i was like only time i smile during sex or when im thinking bout sex. as i was laughin at the joke she reply so you most be thinking bout now cus your not getting any.needless to say we became great benefital friends.

But to get to point nice guys get do get laid quite often. Its the push over and the guys that are not confident that don't when come to casual sex. its kinda funny all girls are that i screw or friends are like when i first saw you i thought you were a badass then i get to know your actually nice sweet. then i say that because your on my good side.

for that guy that women called you asshole. Most time of when i been called an asshole or jerk. is because the women couldn't control they way thought she could. not because i was actually rude or dishonest. i mean less be real i met you drunk and high at club what kinda relationship were you really expecting.

do to my personality i like give people the illusion of control over situation because i have the mindset if the person thinks there control generally that person would be oblvious to most thing that happening around.

I didn't read through all the responses to this. Hell, maybe I have responded to it once before I don't know. I do know this.....

Women are fiercely competitive amongst themselves. I am sure we have all seen the "catty" exchanges.... and seen women pursue the boyfriends of others like a jungle panther!

Here is the skinny on why nice guys SELDOM get picked and almost always settle for what they can get out of desperation. (OK, that last part about desperation is my form of catty)

Women want to be considered the BEST woman they can be right? I mean where a guy wants to show off his manliness, a woman wants to show off her femininity.... her womanly charms if you will. Why do they obsess over the size of their boobs or whether their butt had grown a centimeter? Because these are all the tools by which they attract men!

Now, what kind of statement would a woman be making about her skills as a woman if she bagged a nice, respectable guy that was loyal and dedicated and BORING? Don't you think she would have much BETTER crowing rights if she could say.....

"Lookie here girls. I bagged this Bad Boy here and he changed his ways because *I* am worth it to him!!!!"

Now. Look deep into your heart of hearts and tell me which explaination is closer to the REAL nature of the beast?

Probably either what I said in my post..... What a feather in your cap if you could make a bad boy change his ways..... and just for his love of you. What would that say about you as a woman or his love for you. Tell me I am wrong.

If I AM wrong then the other scenario is true. You can't enjoy it unless you feel you have no choice.... and that it's not "Your Fault".

That goes to my second rule of life: The other guy ALWAYS has an agenda. You can bet your last dollar that agenda does NOT take YOU into account FIRST!