Inspired by a post here:

There's an article on the subject here. Personally I found it a bit insufficient. Is it really the "badness" that makes the asshole attractive? And are the bad boy and the asshole necessarily the same thing? Most of the assholes I've encountered are about as independently-minded as my slippers - certainly less so than me or most of the nice guys I know.

No, I think it's older and deeper than that. In a world where prestige and success aren't usually equated with bar-room (or bedroom) fist-fights, the asshole recalls an earlier strong guy, the defender who's going to ward off threats (rather than the actual modern-day asshole who'll just leave to fend for yourself when he spots something better).

He won't bow down to society if it judges you, because he doesn't care (never mind that he isn't standing by you either, he's too busy f*cking that waffle waitress he saw the other day).

I think the article's right that it's the very impossibility of stringing him along that makes him attractive to a woman. And some of us nice guys could do with learning some of that: I'm getting a whole lot better at it.

For the rest, though, I'm unconvinced. Does he have that much more "wild fun" (more to the point, does his partner)? I can show a girl more fun than most guys my age, and certainly more than the average asshole. He will get more casual sex, that's for sure. But not necessarily with the people I might want it with.

Just my thoughts. Any others?

This is definitely a question for the ladies, but here's my quick two cents.

First, it's about confidence. Ask any number of women and, next to a sense of humor, one of the top things they will say they find attractive in a man is confidence. (I am confident in that fact.) Bad boys and bad-asses ooze confidence through every pore. Women can smell lack of confidence a mile away, and many "nice guys" naturally or inadvertently emit this vibe.

Second, it's the "forbidden fruit." Simply put, whereas nice guys are "easy," bad boys are unreachable. Their confidence and charm allow them to woo many women, and thus make it challenging, if not impossible to be their only woman. The bad boy is like the fruit God told Eve not to eat, only here, he's the guy mother warned you about. It's the defiance and the risk-taking that's a turn on. Nice guys are boring by comparison.

There's so much more that can be said on this subject and I'll have to come back to add to it and see what others say. But before that, let me just raise one other point:

It's very easy to generalize a topic like this, but as with almost all questions in life, something tells me that the answer lies somewhere in the middle. What women want is a guy who falls somewhere between the guy who's push-over nice and the guy who can't stay out of prison long enough to say "I love you." It's definitely a sliding scale, and naturally, women will have individual preferences as to where their ideal guy falls.

So as an ancillary question, I'd like to ask women, on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being the ultimate nice guy, and 10 being the ultimate bad boy, what number their ideal guy is? Something tells me there will be lots of 5s.

yeah, my girl was with the "bad boy".

He was her boss, full of shit, talking himself up, swaggering around like he was god's gift to women, confident, loud, good with the ladies. Acted like, and didn't give a shit about any of them. Erratic, risktaking, narciccistic pig basically.

It makes them much more appealing it seems.

She even said that she was pleased to have got him when others were hanging around trying to nail him.

The nice guy that she worked with that she actually liked, personality, intellect etc. got cut down and humiliated by her "bad boy" and she ended up with the bad boy.

I think younger women go for that much easier than an experienced woman who knows all the bullshit lines, can read when they are lying and aren't as prepared to put up with crap.

Thanks, jiji, you've covered the "bad boy" mystique pretty well.

But is that the same as the card-carrying professional asshole?

I think you and that article are overlooking the complexity of the problem by seeing things a bit one-dimensionally.

To me there isn't just a "nice guy" - "bad boy" linear continuum or dichotomy. I see it more as a two-dimensional plane: let's make it a square because I can think of four extreme types.

So at the bottom left you have the "nice guy" - sexually active or at least aware, wanting to please and take care of his partner, accepting of his obligations and honouring his undertakings. He makes mistakes and tries to learn from them.

At the bottom right I'd put the type that hasn't been mentioned, the weedy nerd, geek or mommy's boy who isn't sexually active or that conscious but has the potential to be one of the other types (I know, I was one once!).

Above the good guy I'd put the rebellious, sexy bad boy. He prides himself on standing out from the crowd, but he may be loving and respectful to his partner. He won't let the rest of us see that, because we might think he's a nice guy and that would be a catastrophe for him.

At the top right I'd put the asshole. He doesn't care about social convention either, but hasn't any values or ethos to put in its place, just his own selfish convenience. He likes to f*ck too, but doesn't care about the person he's doing it with, she better just have his dinner on the table and not gripe about that business with the waffle waitress or her and the kids are history. He's not a real bad boy, he's just a bad mommy's boy.

I don't think any woman really wants the genuine mommy's boy or the asshole, so we're still looking at an ideal close to the left-hand edge. To me the problem is that women who aren't so perceptive or clued up or have low self-esteem misread the asshole as the bad boy they want, much as an unadventurous inexperienced girl might confuse the mommy's boy for the less undersexed good guy.

I'm sure that just makes everything even more confusing. Anyway, that's how I see it until I come up with an even more convoluted image.

I think you're spot-on there, I was working my way to the same conclusion in my rambling piece!

Here's my visualisation made flesh, so to speak. I've reversed my original version left-right to correspond to the notion of advancing development/sophistication.

Asshole--------------------Bad boy
----------------------------------
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
-----|--------------------------|
----------------------------------
Nonsexual-----------------Nice guy

So from left to right we have developing socialisation (the genuine bad boy likes us to think he doesn't care what we think, but Boy, he does) and sexual maturity/awareness. From bottom to top we have disdain for convention. The asshole thinks he's independent and unconstrained, but really he's just an unaware selfish, overgrown mommy's boy.

Note that the nerdy "Nonsexual" type who's yet to discover girls can develop in any direction, I'n not equating him with an asshole-in-waiting, he isn't.

Reminds me of one of those absurd figures you see in turgid sociology texts. I always wanted to do one of those. It was fun!

You can tell it's been a slow day here.

To return to the question, yes, nice guys don't get laid because she wants a bad boy, or maybe more precisely a nice bad boy: he'll be nice to her but won't be a doormat for the boss, the bank or any asshole who gives her trouble.

Assholes get laid because unsophisticated or vulnerable women think they're bad boys. They're not, they're just assholes.

So the trick if you're a nice guy is to seem a bad boy without being an asshole, and look for someone who knows the difference.

Nice visual mugwump1. Your two-dimensional theory certainly draws some needed distinctions between the different kinds of guys. I agree that my linear scale is probably a bit of an oversimplification.

Now going back to the original premise of this thread--i.e., that nice guys don't get laid (or at least presumably not as much as bad boys), would it be accurate, for the purposes of this presumption, to imagine a diagonal line going from the bottom left to the top right of your diagram, which represents increasing desirability to women, and by extension, increasing sexual experience?

I think this discussion encompasses several inquiries:
1. Defining the archetypical guys - which I think mugwump1 has done excellently.
2. Determining in what order women prefer each type, e.g., from most to least attractive - we're going to need the ladies' help here. (Not sure how big a sample size we can expect in this forum alone, but the usual suspects come to mind. )
3. Developing theories explaining those preferences. E.g., evolutionary, social, cultural, etc.

I think you're right, we all start at the bottom left, and developing to the top right (emotionally developed but independently-minded & assertive) is the ideal, erring to the right (nice bad boy) if being an all-out wild bad boy isn't really in us.

Yes, I'd expect 1. Bad boy - 2. Nice guy, but then what? It'll be interesting to see!

1. Nice guy
2. Bad boy
3. Asshole
4. Nonsexual

This is coming from a nineteen year old female, so I'm not sure what to think about all this. I think all females have a bit of attraction to the "bad boy" image but it's something that most do once or twice and it loses the thrill. Those relationships/flings are more energy than they're worth.

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it mugwump.

I don't have much time to post right now, but here's my 2 cents.

1. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. They follow the crowd, and now, the "bad boy" is what's "in". It's a trend that has momentum, so now, the guys covered in tattoos on the motorcycle is the guy they want to be seen with. The fact that he could probably have his ass kicked by any disciplined, trained clean-cut guy notwithstanding.

2. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. So there's a "you get what you pay for" attitude, and the guy who can't be fenced in (ie. popular, prone to infidelity, always chasing skirt) is the one her heart and loins hurt for, because she has to "work" to get him. Not to mention if he's fucking so many women, he must be good in bed, right? She wants a piece of the action.

3. Most women, like most people, aren't so smart. Nothing's more boring to a dull person than a smart person. "Bad boys" -- their interests, their value system, etc. -- are easy to understand, just like she likes' em. She doesn't want to be bored by obtuse bullshit like a guy who's a little more subtle or "sensitive". Most women like to keep it simple. "Bad boys" are simple. Don't try to impress this kind of woman with your genius at oil painting. She ain't interested.


Unlike dull women, smart women seek qualities in men that are good for them and their partnership (including manly qualities like independence, confidence, and social skills, that dull women associate with "bad boys"). Dull women like assholes, "independent" guys who borrow money from them, need a place to stay and give them chlamydia.

I think most guys should cultivate the manly qualities, be reasonably sure you can hand a "bad boy's" ass to him, and as for the dull girls who like "bad boys", it's their loss. I'm no expert, but I think finding a decent woman is about quality instead of quantity, so the fact that so many women like badboys is immaterial as long as you can have confidence in your own game.

Same applies to avoiding losing the woman by being "too nice". I say go ahead and be nice to her right from the start --what the hell-- and if her attitude changes that's a blessing because the sooner you know she's "one of those", the better. Chances are, she'll feel nice & dumped when your attitude suddenly changes too! And don't let her crawl back to save face (and then dump you in turn)! If she's not impressed with your qualities enough that being a "nice guy" is such a deal-breaker, bank on it: she's not worth much in the long term anyway.

And if she just wants to be fucked, why are you bringing her flowers anyway? If you just HAVE to "pay for it" head over to brazil or thailand and get some ass that way. Save the flowers, heartache, complexities, thought & trepidation, etc. for your pursuit of the real prize -- the "keeper".

Last, but not least, I think us "nice guys" are a little too "deferent" when it comes to women. Don't get me wrong, I practically worship'em. I like women, and don't mind trying to impress her, making her a really important part of my world, etc. But since it takes a whoooole lot of trying to find one decent woman, I've learned to be less "deferent" to a woman's "right" to not be approached by me. As long as I'm polite and presentable, and smell okay at the time, I'm going for it.

No I'm not the smoothest guy in the world, ma'am, so shoot me down if you will, but it takes a high quantity of come ons to get with that one quality woman. And that's more important to me than your "right" not to have me come on to you. So if it ain't gonna get me arrested or fired, here I come!

Sorry for the rant, but it's halfway through summer, I'm in my 40s, don't have a girlfriend and been up since 3 'cause I can't sleep. Plus I'm not rich and have low "t" to boot. Time to start swinging for the fences. Don't let this be your future. Make mistakes if you have to, but swing hard.

And no, this will probably make no sense once I take a nap, but yes I'm posting it anyway.

Confidence? Umm... Over rated. It's actually about being congruent. Everything you do and everything you say must flow from everything you are. You must be aligned on all levels. Usually referred to as "Inner Game".

That's why if you ask a girls advice she says,"Just be yourself and you'll be fine."

Nice guys are usually confused with chumps, and chumps have no identity so they can't be themselves as they have no definition. They usually try to be something they're not... sexy, confident, successful, strong, cool, etc.

Humor goes a long way, as it makes woman relax and feel comfortable around you.

I'm a strange loser, and that's what I approach women as... most of them like it. Even the bad ass ones. Although you have to keep in mind, even the greatest players, don't have a 100% strike record. So most guys shouldn't expect more than 50%. Just because a guy gets shot down, doesn't mean there is something wrong with them.

Also I've noticed "nice" guys always tend to approach the wrong women.

Thanks, Rainbow! Interesting that you prefer the nice guy overall but the asshole to the as yet unsexualized dork - I guess the possible orderings are infinite (well, I know there's only 24, but that's near enough)!

Wow-- don't have time to read all this right now. But I still plan on coming back and adressing this issue. mugwump-- I don't completely agree with that article either- and have mentioned that somewhere else on these forum. Problem is, I don't remember where!

I also agree that theres a difference between the "bad boy" mystique and an asshole.

Hopefully will address this more full tomorrow.

Ok- I'm going to try and jump in here now. But the convo has gotten quite scholarly, and I don't know if I can match up to that! But I can give my take on this subject.

I agree that confidence plays a big part in a womans attraction to bad boys. It can also be the excitement and risk associated with them. But I believe that younger women are more likely to get caught up in that type of persona then older women do. (exception to you Rainbow!) And the luster and novelty can wear off pretty quickly.

One thing- that hasn't been mentioned yet is that I think one of the reasons women of all ages can get sometimes get caught up with a bad boy is because I think they believe they can "help" them. Theres this bad boy, who may show them a bit of sensitivity here and there. So she believes that under that harder-edged man lies the heart of a poet-- and if only he could experience her love, she could "save" him and bring out the more sensitive qualities.

Yes fellas-- women really do feel this way at times.

I think thats the lure of the bad boy rockers that are mentioned in the article. These are men who are desired by many women, and are actually very demeaning to women in a lot of their lyrics- but then the power ballad song comes along. And there we get a peek into what we believe is his soul and heart and who he really is underneath. All he needs is the love of the right woman to bring forth that man from what may be seen as a 'damaged', or hurting or lost male soul. Yes again fellas. Women oftentimes may have a romantic view of the whole situation and man.

She really may believe that he can be saved if only she is persistent enough.

On another tangent-- there can be an appeal to capturing what appears to be uncapturable. Many people- men and women- love the thrill of the chase and find a certain amount of uncertainty exciting. It gets the heart pounding and the blood pumping-- a hunters instinct if you will. I know that men are often perceived as the hunters and women the prey-- but I think just as often-- its the other way around with the men none the wiser.

THere is however a difference between a bad boy and an asshole. Its just that some women don't have the ability or experience to discerne the difference.

Also- a thought to keep in mind-- is that not all men who think they are "nice guys" are as nice as they think they are either.

The trick is to develop a bit of a balance. There is such a thing as being "Too nice". What I mean by that is that some men try almost too hard. Theres a desperation in their actions. Yes, they are being very nice and accomadating- but at the same time- theres a desperate vibe radiating off of them. A woman gets the feeling that he doesn't just want her, he wants any woman that will have him, and then she doesn't feel very special.

Personally, in my past, I've been attracted to all kinds. I guess when it comes down to it-- I like a nice guy, with just a little bit of an edge. Not even sure exactly how to explain that very well either. My husband is truly a nice guy. Hes the first to help a person in need-- and all the old ladies on our block think hes such a nice young man! (They give him cookies.) Yet- when he gets that intense look in his eyes- and determined stride in his walk-- theres an almost dangerous vibe from him. Subtle at times- other times overt.

Its also part of what attracted me to my former manager. He was always nice and so very proper. In his actions and the way he dressed-- very conserative clothes. Yet thats part of what intrigued me-- his very properness, coupled with a smolder in his eyes. I always was curious about whether that proper, buttoned- up man would be a man who would just let it loose sexually. Many times I wondered if he would be adventerous in sex- and to be honest-- if we had both been single- I may have tried to find out. Not saying he would have been interested- but I think I would have tried to see if I could unleash the sexual animal I suspected was there. (of course- for all I know- maybe he really sucks in bed_)


Well-- thats enough for now. Gotta get going- hope I added a bit to the conversation that makes sense!

We see that

To quote Simi from another thread, once again Firefly, you have demonstrated your "great insight to the female psyche."

So, "nice guys with an edge" eh? I can see that being the gold standard.

So it seems nice guys aren't so badly off as the article suggests. Maybe we're just less forward at offering ourselves while the bad boy thinks he's god's gift to women and sweeps her off her feet by sheer bravado before your very eyes just as you're working out how to put her at her ease and explore each other's personality.

I agree Firefly about that "taming" instict (something maternal in that regardless of age, maybe - nice guys are potential good fathers but bad boys are "boys"?). I think there are women who successfully tamed their bad boy and promptly lost interest in him as a result! Now I aim to keep myself just wild enough to be interesting but domesticated enough not to be worth further effort.

I agree too about not being too "nice". There's certainly an appeal to some element of "danger" or risk, maybe it's the desire for someone who'll be ready to get medieval on any other guy who wrongs her.

I guess "nice guy with an edge" goes for me - it seems my views, tastes & lifestyle make me just a bit of a bad boy in most women's eyes without any effort, while friends, women who're into my scene and other guys know I'm anything but. That'll do for me, for now.

I'm glad people like my "nice guy with an edge"!

mugwump- I must admit, I do like knowing that if someone did me wrong or tried to hurt me, that my husband would most likely ahnihilate him. Hes very slow to anger in most cases and has never gotten involved in a physical altercation in all the years we've been together- but I know that potential is there. And hes a big guy.

Okay, so I didn't read all the responses, I might be covering something someone else has touched on.

Basically, a lot of people don't like making the first move, so, the type of personality that will probably make the first move? Extroverted, outgoing types. So, just from probability, those people, both male and female, get the greater odds.

Another point I would like to make is the submissive/dominant dynamic that goes on in all relationships. Some people just respond to dominance - even if the person is spouting crap, if they say it loud enough and with an air of authority, there will be many all too happy to follow. (Think Hitler)

Now about nice guys. I dated a guy who may be described as "nice", but when I better got to know him, it was more like "pushover". He was unmotivated, I had to send out job apps for him. He was overly emotional, to the point where he didn't even know what he was saying, just blubbering on and on...It was just terribly unsexy. I could dominate him, hey, I'm an outgoing person.
One thing that always attracted me to my husband was that he was not afraid of me. I could try to pull some shit with him, and he just wouldn't have it. Sometime I was right and he was wrong, and in the moment it pissed me off. But I would never change that about him, because it is also what makes him completely sexy. He doesn't dominate me in a bad way, but he isn't rolling over at my every whim either. He's really a mix of lots of types, just like I am. He's good with computers and electronics, but he's also very athletic. He's intellectual and sensitive but also laughs at fart jokes and watches porn.

I think for both men and women, it just takes time before you can find someone who has the compatible combination of stereotypes that works for you.

I have to be honest. I have always had a thing for the "bad boy".

I don't know why. But I find them incredibly sexual. Like, if they were in my bed, I don't know if they would fuck me or bite me, either way, I would be happy...